Curse

JR · May 24, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Balanced Adren Spike

The basis of this build is very rapid adren spikes, backed up by the other offensive casters. The warriors should call spikes as regularly regularly as possible. Backed up on the spike with two Lightning Orbs and a Shatter Enchantment or Energy burn.

Spikes are done with a 3-2-1 countdown; Orbs on three, Shatter/Burn on two*, Eviscerate on one. Casters should not be using a staff with 20% fast casting chance on their spike spells. Elementalists can also chain Gale priority Monk targets, or incoming flag runners if you are holding for a boost.

(*Taking into account Fast-Casting level.)

A copy of Deep Freeze allows you to snare often, and with the ward range effect, debuff and duration not being effected by attribute level you can reduce the number of points in Water, but for the extra 1 in energy storage it didn't seem worth it.

One of the Flashbots also runs a copy of Windborne Speed, for two reasons. They may need to run flags instead of the Ranger, if you wish to switch them up for tactical advantages. Also I have been increasingly impressed with just how good a utility skill Windborne is. Boosting Warriors to help hit kiting targets, boosting Monks to help them kite, helping straggling characters on a retreat, or boosting someone who goes back to base to prevent a gank... It has plenty of uses.

Monks are fairly interchangeable in this build, I merely posted a backline that I like running at the moment, and synergises well with this build. For example with two copies of Draw on the Flashbots, you don't need Mend Condition on your monks. This allows them to take Mend Ailment, which is stronger on a split.

[EDIT: This build has recently been slightly revamped, due to greater experience of playing it and discovering worthwhile modifications.

The Flashbots are now more tailored to Stand or Flag jobs, allowing the Crip-Shot much more freedom and flexibility. You can now split off the Crip-Shot and maybe a Warrior to do a base solo job knowing quite happily that the Ele can run flags. Alternatively you can run a very strong dual-flag team between the Crip-Shot and the runner tailored Flashbot, in situations where you can't give them full team support.

The Mesmer now has Draw, which allows for a much more aggressive offensive split in a 4/4 situation, and a much stronger defensive split.

The Warriors now both have Bull's Strike instead of "To The Limit!", because.. it is simply better.

The Monks now have CoP instead of Hex Breaker, as the metagame has shifted to a point where it is no longer just Diversion spam you have to worry about.]

This is a fairly simple build to run, but I wouldn't reccomend it for newer players.

[EDIT 2: Changed the Cripshot to a main party character, and moved an E/Mo to dedicated flag running. We basicly found that with so many people running either Assassins to harrass your base, or builds that you are stronger splitting against, the Cripshot was basicly pointless as a flag runner and the E/Mo would end up doing it most of the time anyway.

Updated the Warriors, and changed the backline up a bit.

A strong option now available to you is splitting off the Cripshot and a Warrior into the opponents base, if you are in a situation where you aren't doing so strongly 8 vs8.]

Shock Axe
Warrior/Elementalist

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Axe Mastery: 16 (12+4)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Air Magic: 2

- Shock (Air Magic)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Eviscerate [Elite] (Axe Mastery)
- Executioner's Strike (Axe Mastery)
- Bull's Strike (Strength)
- Sprint (Strength)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Resurrection Signet ()

Devastator
Warrior/Monk

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Hammer Mastery: 16 (12+4)

- Irresistible Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Frenzy (Warrior other)
- Devastating Hammer [Elite] (Hammer Mastery)
- Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Fierce Blow (Hammer Mastery)
- Rush (Strength)
- Healing Signet (Tactics)
- Resurrection Signet ()

Expell Dom
Mesmer/Monk

Fast Casting: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 14 (12+2)
Inspiration Magic: 10 (9+1)
Illusion Magic: 3 (2+1)
Healing Prayers: 5

- Expel Hexes [Elite] (Mesmer other)
- Energy Burn (Domination Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
- Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
- Diversion (Domination Magic)
- Blackout (Domination Magic)
- Distortion (Illusion Magic)
- Resurrection Chant (Healing Prayers)

Flashbot
Elementalist/Monk

Energy Storage: 10 (9+1)
Air Magic: 14 (12+2)
Healing Prayers: 9
Protection Prayers: 3

- Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
- Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
- Gale (Air Magic)
- Lightning Strike (Air Magic)
- Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
- Draw Conditions (Protection Prayers)
- Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
- Resurrection Signet ()

Cripshot
Ranger/Mesmer

Expertise: 15 (11+4)
Wilderness Survival: 10 (9+1)
Marksmanship: 11 (10+1)
Illusion Magic: 3

- Storm Chaser (Wilderness Survival)
- Crippling Shot [Elite] (Marksmanship)
- Savage Shot (Marksmanship)
- Distracting Shot (Expertise)
- Apply Poison (Wilderness Survival)
- Troll Unguent (Wilderness Survival)
- Distortion (Illusion Magic)
- Resurrection Signet ()

B-Light
Monk/Mesmer

Divine Favor: 15 (11+4)
Healing Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Protection Prayers: 9 (8+1)
Domination Magic: 1
Inspiration Magic: 9

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Gift of Health (Healing Prayers)
- Blessed Light [Elite] (Divine Favor)
- Spirit Bond (Protection Prayers)
- Hex Breaker (Domination Magic)
- Signet of Devotion (Divine Favor)
- Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
- Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)

Boon Prot
Monk/Mesmer

Divine Favor: 14 (12+2)
Protection Prayers: 10 (9+1)
Inspiration Magic: 9

- Reversal of Fortune (Protection Prayers)
- Signet of Devotion (Divine Favor)
- Mend Condition (Protection Prayers)
- Protective Spirit (Protection Prayers)
- Inspired Hex (Inspiration Magic)
- Contemplation of Purity (Divine Favor)
- Energy Drain [Elite] (Inspiration Magic)
- Divine Boon (Divine Favor)

Air Runner
Elementalist/Monk

Energy Storage: 9 (8+1)
Air Magic: 14 (12+2)
Healing Prayers: 10
Protection Prayers: 2

- Ether Prodigy [Elite] (Energy Storage)
- Lightning Orb (Air Magic)
- Blinding Flash (Air Magic)
- Gale (Air Magic)
- Windborne Speed (Air Magic)
- Healing Breeze (Healing Prayers)
- Heal Party (Healing Prayers)
- Extinguish (Protection Prayers)

Vindexus · May 25, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Sigh...

*Closes Thread*

Edit:

Two warriors, Two Air Eles and a dom mesmer is one of my favorite build ideas by far. The defense is definetely there, and the offense is very sound.

Personally I'd rather have a res sig on the second Air Ele than windborne.

I'd definetely want Diversion on the dom mesmer. In my version of this build I had him almost specifically for Diversion. I had a MoR with Remove Hex instead of Expel Hexes. Expel is great, but I think Recovery is better in this setup. Twice as many shatter enchantments! You do lose Distortion though. Tough choice, but definetely fit in Diversion.

Poison Ivy · May 25, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I don't see the point of spiking when your spliting...

As long as the enemy's monk is shutdown, that Ele keeps them from escaping or approaching you (Warriors), and your warrior gets some damage assistance from the Mesmer (Whose current build is pretty crap), your fine.

Byron · May 25, 2006, 07:19 AM // 07:19

I'm a fan of this build, but as usual, I have a nit to pick.

Shock on the axe warrior doesn't seem as useful as a hammer KD, IMO. And both "To The Limit!" and sprint have a big chance of being gimped with exhaustion factoring in (assuming you won't always want to wait 20 seconds between each spike). The snaring concerns are fulfilled with deep freeze, though. I think rush would be a better choice, tbh.

JR · May 25, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'm a fan of this build, but as usual, I have a nit to pick.

Shock on the axe warrior doesn't seem as useful as a hammer KD, IMO. And both "To The Limit!" and sprint have a big chance of being gimped with exhaustion factoring in (assuming you won't always want to wait 20 seconds between each spike). The snaring concerns are fulfilled with deep freeze, though. I think rush would be a better choice, tbh.

Well he won't be using "To The Limit!" on the spike, giving him time to regen a bit of energy. The Shock is there because the Hammer KD wont come in untill fairly late in the spike, and it needs a starting hard snare. It doesn't have to be used *every* time; he could call for a Gale or Deep Freeze instead. Rush is a consideration, but at the moment I don't really have any problems with this guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Sigh...

*Closes Thread*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Personally I'd rather have a res sig on the second Air Ele than windborne.

It's a tough call though; I honestly really think a good player can get a lot of mileage out of Windborne speed. However swapping a Res Sig in there would not be a big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I'd definetely want Diversion on the dom mesmer. In my version of this build I had him almost specifically for Diversion. I had a MoR with Remove Hex instead of Expel Hexes. Expel is great, but I think Recovery is better in this setup. Twice as many shatter enchantments! You do lose Distortion though. Tough choice, but definetely fit in Diversion.

Diversion is overrated in my opinion; I have never really had a serious problem playing against it. Not that I am saying it's bad, I just don't really think it is a 'money' skill anymore. I also think Expell will pay off more than MoR in the long run, otherwise this build would be a little gimped in the hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

I don't see the point of spiking when your spliting...

I said the build can split well, and gave an example split. I didn't say it was a split build.

rii · May 25, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

I'm not sure how good a forceful hammer is over a basic KD spiker. If I'm not mistaken, deep wounds still need a strike after hitting to activate, which means putting crushing at the very end of a spike is a bit crap. Personally, I wouldn't run forceful to start with. If they run guardian, the option is strong on plain getting shafted, both with self-inflicted KD and the lack of weakness for the rest of the spike. Thats purely an opinion so far, since I haven't play tested forceful, but IMO stick with backbreaker/devastating or just get a shock axe. +42 < KD

As for To The Limit!, I don't personally see the point. I've used TTL and it's ok... just... ok. In terms of charging adrenaline the only time I have a problem normally is when the enemy use soothing (images or ritual). Neither are really big enough to justify TTL, although if I was guaranteed to run into it I can see the value. I would drop it for axe rake, distracting, penetrating, etc.

If you want to 'fast adren spike' I would go the whole distance, and drop the cripshot for a basic OOB necro. Give him dark fury, and go wild. Not so great in a split situation, but in a split situation TTL has the option of going downhill since, well, there are less people there. You would drop the snare (2x deep freeze remains), but your adrenal skills will charge *fast*, not *a bit faster occasionally*. Pick up shadow of fear and all the standard other stuff, and go /mo for draw conditions, and then drop draw on the Elmo for a Resurrection Signet.

I agree that Expel > MOR, but I do agree with diversion. Personally, I would run:

expeldom

Mesmer/Monk
Level: 20

Fast Casting: 11 (10+1)
Domination Magic: 14 (10+4)
Inspiration Magic: 10 (9+1)
Illusion Magic: 8 (7+1)

Expel Hexes [Elite] (Mesmer other)
Draw Conditions (Protection Prayers)
Blackout (Domination Magic)
Diversion (Domination Magic)
Distortion (Illusion Magic)
Drain Enchantment (Inspiration Magic)
Shatter Enchantment (Domination Magic)
Resurrection Signet ()

But then again, I like running two mesmers, so the fact that there is only one damage support is negated by the fact there are two of them. However, if you were to use a dark fury necro, who would carry Shadow Strike or similar, you may be able to drop the extra damage on the mesmer anyway, since ATM the cripshot doesnt give much to the spike (lit: nothing).

I agree that Windborne owns.

The second copy of heal party doesnt have to be that strong. Unless you are preparing for contingencies (i.e. distracting shot), then you can drop the HP to around 30hp. This then in conjunction with the 50ish first copy counters degen thoroughly and can let you invest elsewhere.

Lady Erighan · May 25, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Last night I saw a rank 50ish team destroy RIFT (was rank 5ish) with a similar build or concept. However, instead of two warriors, they had one warrior and a sin. It was pretty incredible how quickly they were spiking and RIFT just couldn't Infuse in time to save the target.

JR · May 25, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I'm not sure how good a forceful hammer is over a basic KD spiker. If I'm not mistaken, deep wounds still need a strike after hitting to activate, which means putting crushing at the very end of a spike is a bit crap. Personally, I wouldn't run forceful to start with. If they run guardian, the option is strong on plain getting shafted, both with self-inflicted KD and the lack of weakness for the rest of the spike. Thats purely an opinion so far, since I haven't play tested forceful, but IMO stick with backbreaker/devastating or just get a shock axe. +42 < KD

The original and playtested build was basicly this but with two Shock Axe Warriors, instead of one hammer. The Forcefull/Fierce combo is something I do like very much in theory, but have yet to test. The damage is definately quite attractive, and I think it synergises fairly well with the Axe, but we shall see. Your pont about Bash and Crushing is good, but I don't think it is as much of an issue where there is the Axe Warrior who *should* be applying a deep wound to begin with. Then if it is removed before the target drops the Hammer will re-apply it. Having Bash at the end also works quite well if the target will be Shocked, spreading out the knockdowns.

I have also considered a Shock->Crushing->Forcefull->Fierce combo on this guy, and will probably test that also. Running Shock on a Hammer Warrior is a bit risky though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

As for To The Limit!, I don't personally see the point. I've used TTL and it's ok... just... ok. In terms of charging adrenaline the only time I have a problem normally is when the enemy use soothing (images or ritual). Neither are really big enough to justify TTL, although if I was guaranteed to run into it I can see the value. I would drop it for axe rake, distracting, penetrating, etc.

I have nothing but good experiences with TTL, I guess this could be a matter of personal experience and preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

If you want to 'fast adren spike' I would go the whole distance, and drop the cripshot for a basic OOB necro. Give him dark fury, and go wild. Not so great in a split situation, but in a split situation TTL has the option of going downhill since, well, there are less people there. You would drop the snare (2x deep freeze remains), but your adrenal skills will charge *fast*, not *a bit faster occasionally*. Pick up shadow of fear and all the standard other stuff, and go /mo for draw conditions, and then drop draw on the Elmo for a Resurrection Signet.

Crip-Shot Rangers are far too versatile and strong for me to want to drop that guy any time soon. Not that the Necro would be a weak character, but I don't think it works quite as well with the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I agree that Expel > MOR, but I do agree with diversion.

As with TTL, probably down to personal experience and preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

since ATM the cripshot doesnt give much to the spike (lit: nothing).

That guy will be running flags most of the time, so I'm not too worried about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

The second copy of heal party doesnt have to be that strong. Unless you are preparing for contingencies (i.e. distracting shot), then you can drop the HP to around 30hp. This then in conjunction with the 50ish first copy counters degen thoroughly and can let you invest elsewhere.

I think given the attribute spread there is no real pressing need to free up points. I am quite happy to have a slightly higher specced heal party.

Good points though, all taken into consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Erighan

Last night I saw a rank 50ish team destroy RIFT (was rank 5ish) with a similar build or concept. However, instead of two warriors, they had one warrior and a sin. It was pretty incredible how quickly they were spiking and RIFT just couldn't Infuse in time to save the target.

Assassins are something I will admit to not having much experience with yet. I definately see their potential as a viable alternative to Warriors, but could not feel comfortable building one to fit a team build like this untill I have had more of a chance to play about with them. It is something I will be looking into though.

rii · May 25, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I personally dont see the A/ as a replacement for a warrior just yet. Their in battle presence doesnt seem to rival the warrior from what I've seen. From watching WM quite a lot however, I have to say they are awesome for that split style of playing against the enemies base as opposed to the enemy. AOD is pretty much the reason, and the extra energy and instant chains also add, as opposed to the warrior who, when soloing a base, needs to charge adren, either via wanding from range or whatever. Auspicious parry is an option for warriors who need to charge faster, and still makes them nice against bases. A/ seems to be much better equipped for that playstyle however. Only initial inspection however.

I see that forceful has synergy with the Shock Axe, but I was mainly considering when splitting the warriors, a forceful on its own would not be sufficient. Of course, once you already have the deep wound +42 all day. Shock - Crushing - forceful - fierce might be nice though. Again, play testing required. Shock might not be so risky in a build that looks like you will be dropping irresistible (4 attack skills would be overkill). With only frenzy, spiking with crushing (assumingly you could run rush), shock would be ok.

Lady Erighan · May 25, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Yes, I agree that assissins are no replacement for a warrior - different class and different style of play. However, when you're running a build that requires fast reflexes and surprise attacks for effective spike kills (such as the build JR posted), speed and mobility are very important; something sins excel at.

I'm sure two warriors will be just as effective, but after seeing RIFT's team dead around the 3-minute mark, I just couldn't help but appreciate how fast kills were being made.

Vindexus · May 25, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Diversion is really strong against any kind of adrenal spike build. If that monk doesn't cast anything for 6s, you should get the kill. If he does use Reversal or Infuse, then you should probably get the next six kills.

JR · May 25, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Diversion is really strong against any kind of adrenal spike build. If that monk doesn't cast anything for 6s, you should get the kill. If he does use Reversal or Infuse, then you should probably get the next six kills.

Meh. Like I said, i've played against some very good adren spikes with diversion as monk, and the diversion was never a huge issue. However I do run Hexbreaker these days...

suiraCLAW · May 25, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

However I do run Hexbreaker these days...

Off-topic: I always found inspired hex the ideal diversion counter: there's no added recharge etc. (could be wrong) + you can use it (a lot of monks won't cast when they see a diversion, even if it's low specced)

About the build:
I would take mend condition above mend ailments on the boon-prots, considering the fact that your build has a few copy's of draw condition.

Another preference of me would using blackout on the crip shot runner. This would require a large attribute spread but I do think he could handle that.

For the rest: I pretty much agree with Vindexus about diversion, it's a great way to counter alot of builds (smiters, thumpers, and everything else that needs to use a lot of skills).

About assasins vs warriors: I once saw a succesfull spike using 2 assasins and one Me/A (that runned a high specced impale and mark of death). In other words: it's possible.

JR · May 25, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Off-topic: I always found inspired hex the ideal diversion counter: there's no added recharge etc. (could be wrong) + you can use it (a lot of monks won't cast when they see a diversion, even if it's low specced)

Only if there is another hex to remove at the time Diversion lands. It is far from uncommon for Diversion to be one of the very few hexes in builds. If there is other hexes around then there is a good chance that your Inspired will already have been used, and wont be available at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

About the build:
I would take mend condition above mend ailments on the boon-prots, considering the fact that your build has a few copy's of draw condition.

Er, not seeing this. Are you sure you don't have Ailment and Condition mixed up? As I stated in the build description; I chose Ailment because the build already has two Draw Conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Another preference of me would using blackout on the crip shot runner. This would require a large attribute spread but I do think he could handle that.

That guy did originally have Blackout instead of Dodge, but I found Blackout just wasn't as usefull on a guy who mostly run flags, wheras Dodge is very handy. It also allowed a better attribute spread in not taking it.

suiraCLAW · May 25, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Only if there is another hex to remove at the time Diversion lands.

Can't you use inspired hex on Diversion?

ghostof · May 25, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Just over from the hammer thread. I was playing in HoH last night on an orders. Ya I know noob centric Iway but hey its all I could get. The devasting > Crushing > Fierce > Auspicious Combo was brutal. I would tell you that is much better then dealing with an energy worrisome shock hammer for a few ticks of potential damage. Frenzy, rush, rez, heal to round it out. I couldn't do much.

Maybe add crude swing as opposed to auspicious to get adrenline charge. I am also not a huge TTL fan because of its recharge time. Crude swings are much faster and cheaper imo at getting you the adrenline. Figure you'll be around softies for the most part or can run into a group like you would with ttl and for 5 energy get the same ticks of adrenline while doing some damage and have a nice quick recharge to do it again. Screw up ttl or it gets diverted, interrupted its a long recharge.

JR · May 25, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Can't you use inspired hex on Diversion?

It only *doesn't* get diverted if you take off any hex other than the Diversion on you. If you take that off, you DO get Inspired diverted.

Divineshadows · May 25, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostof

Maybe add crude swing as opposed to auspicious to get adrenline charge. I am also not a huge TTL fan because of its recharge time. Crude swings are much faster and cheaper imo at getting you the adrenline. Figure you'll be around softies for the most part or can run into a group like you would with ttl and for 5 energy get the same ticks of adrenline while doing some damage and have a nice quick recharge to do it again. Screw up ttl or it gets diverted, interrupted its a long recharge.

Did you seriously just suggest crude swing? The opposition is not going to ball up for you to let you build adrenalin using crude swing. TTL is a shout which has a fairly decent range and it is not difficult to get 3+ strikes of adrenalin for any user who knows exactly how big shout range is. If your goal is to give the other team a good laugh or to try and beat the opposition using only 63 skills instead of 64, then yeah I can see crude swing being viable for those types of goals. This skill is so bad that it is useless in both PvP and PvE.

By definition, shouts cannot be interrupted and have instant activation time. Crude swing, on the other hand, is easily interrupted. Anybody who manages to get their TTL shout diverted either does not have a clue what the diversion hex looks like/does or is playing while intoxicated.

rii · May 25, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I wouldnt say that in PVP the easily interrupted tag on crude swing is a huge issue. Unless they have a butload of spirits all hitting you, when you have frenzy on the cast time is less than a second. The issue of range, is of course devastating.

SaintGreg · May 26, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

I personally don't see where the synergy between your two warriors comes from. You've paired a particularly good adrenaline gaining axe warrior with a fairly inconsistent adrenaline gaining hammer warrior. The hammer warrior is screwed if he does use bash, and he's screwed if he doesn't use it.

If you want to spike with any certainty, the axe warrior is going to need to shock pretty often at the beginning of spikes, which isn't going to happen due to the exhaustion concerns. I could see it working if the hammer guy spikes with bash first every now and then, but that loses the entire point of forceful blow, and you still have to wait a long time to reset back to full, you'd basically be better off just using devastating hammer anyways.

I could see something like this:

Hammer
W/*

Strength: 9 (8+1)
Tactics: 11 (10+1)
Hammer Mastery: 16 (12+3+1)

Devastating Hammer {E}
Crushing Blow
Fierce Blow
"To The Limit!"
Frenzy
Sprint*
Healing Signet
Resurrection Signet

*or: Rush